If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter Battlestar Galactica. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. I seen it first hand as well. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. So they downvote actual biological functions here. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. We look forward to serving you. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. I have been shooting for 50 years now. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. View our Terms of Service The victim died immediately. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. Bob.
style Tommy Gun The ambulance took him away. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. Think the title of this article is misleading. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake.
Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. Thats funny. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. What, is that like an every day occurrence? Sudden, immediate and even instant death. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? I sure do love 45acp though. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. That use the same ammo is the way for me. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. George. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range.
Body 45 Human Acp Damage After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. So any caliber is better than none. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. Now, I read the officers story. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. Can someone comment on this? Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. They are a secondary source at best. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). The average criminal etc. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly We have much better tools now. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. True. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground.
damage Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum If an operator like a .45 go for it. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones.
WHICH HANDGUN ROUND HAS THE BEST STOPPING POWER? Practice, practice, practice. Spread the word; knowledge is power! If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. With practice almost anything is possible. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs.
Vector The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. I am not old. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. That and other factors. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. Id rather be hit by a small rock than a big one.
45 ACP Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. career to carry a Glock 9mm. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. Thats my two cents for what its worth. 45 stopping power! Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? Okay all handgun are garbage. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time.
human body end of discussion. Much of the difference is There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). The pistol is not their primary weapon. to stop the threat. Yes, yeas I have. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! I think it is more the exception than the rule. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? You get the idea. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. Bowman, Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. Startle affect. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. Its hard for Civilians to understand the firepower of the Military & Police, and what they can choose to bring to bear on their target, but we are responsible for each bullet fired, as Civilians! It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. You fire lots and lots of them through das maschinepistole and drown em in hot metal until they fall down and stop trying to kill you. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J.
Category:Human body It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. Now thats hilarious. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. Its hesitation that makes people miss. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. Which is better? I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. JavaScript is disabled. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. #firearmtraining. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. For another 2+ years. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. Very smart Chris ! Really late to the discussion. That changed for me Dec of 2017. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. 2. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. A century? With the 45 2 at most. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Beats. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot.